Hand Discussion 4 "9k 54$ DS SH"

DS=deepstack, SH=short handed, ITM=in the money

ALready ITM last 15

***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (On Game)
Tourney Hand NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, September 25, 10:57:32 ET 2010
Table Table 5 84776349 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Seat 4: Player4 ( $67636.00 USD ) - VPIP: 22, PFR: 16, 3B: 2, AF: 1.3, Hands: 193
Seat 9: Player9 ( $46481.00 USD ) - VPIP: 24, PFR: 8, 3B: 0, AF: 2.3, Hands: 102
Seat 10: Player10 ( $54943.00 USD ) - VPIP: 20, PFR: 15, 3B: 9, AF: 3.0, Hands: 184
Seat 3: Hero ( $55692.00 USD ) - VPIP: 24, PFR: 17, 3B: 8, AF: 2.3, Hands: 72174
Player4 posts ante of [$120.00 USD].
Player9 posts ante of [$120.00 USD].
Player10 posts ante of [$120.00 USD].
Hero posts ante of [$120.00 USD].
Player4 posts small blind [$600.00 USD].
Player9 posts big blind [$1200.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Kh As ]
Player10 raises [$3000.00 USD]
Hero ????????

so whats the plan here I have a healthy stack flat in pos 3bet? R we playing for stacks here if we 3bet?
if we 3bet whats the optimal betsize here?


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My response:

I'd 3 bet here but probably a bit bigger than easyeasyeasy - more like 10 or 11k as the pot is pretty big alrdy with the antis, 3k to 8k gives him pretty good odds to call (5k to win about 13.5k) with ur deepstacks.

If he shoves then your almost always calling 4 handed with AK and for probably a first place pot late in the tourny - unless you have some sort of awesome read on him (if he does shove it would feel pretty flippy to me like JJ or QQ, I'd go for it at this point of the tourny)

If he flats and checks to you on the flop, with a 20-25k pot and you both having 45k behind, most times I would shove the flop - this makes your life a lot easier and because you built a big pot pre your close to the odds even if he has an overpair and elects to call (e.g. the flop is 628 and he has JJ)...you were planning on calling his shove pre anyway so whats the difference? Only this time you got a bigger pot to win without a showdown. I don't like the idea of making a weak C bet then potentially folding....epic leak in my opinion

Also if he has a hand like JJ, he will probably think along the lines of "I'll call pre and check raise a low flop", then if you flat shove it makes his decision a lot harder

P.s. this is a lot more effective late in a tournament than early in a tournament as people will call off a lot lighter early in a tourny

I don't think shoving preflop is that awful (although not my preferred route) for a couple of reasons:

1) Your AK is very likely to be the best hand so your taking the 5.5K pot down that is rightfully yours (which is 10% of your stack)

2) It's inviting your opponents to make mistakes, there is nothing more annoying than having some mug shove on you everytime you raise when you have deepstacks and coming up to a crucial time relative to the payout structure and competition end, especially Shorthanded when it is more noticable and you know you need to raise more than a full ring game as the anti's and blinds will eat you.

It's awesome when you have a good run of cards and keep shoving on your opponents and eventually they give way and make a bad call ("this donk shoves all the time! if he shoves now im calling this AJ/99 pre despite having 40bbs!!" - ever done that before and ran into AA/KK or AK? lol i have...)

The other factor to consider is your table image and your read on him, e.g. if he is a calling station then obviously don't shove any flop without an A or K, or if you have been 3 betting/contiuation betting a lot then your shoves going to get a lot less respect

Hand Discussion 3 "Badly played monster"

I know I played the hand pretty poorly.. but I was just wondering if most people would:

a) Take the same line on the flop in checking, or bet out (How much?)
b) I am assuming most people would be raising here.. but do you raise less to try get both to call?
c) I know my river bet was poorly sizes (I bet pot hoping he obv had a 4 and couldnt lay it down).. but how much are you valuebetting.

TY

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $1(BB) Prima
SB ($96.81)
BB ($59.50)
Hero ($165)
UTG+1 ($134)
CO ($102)
BTN ($33.41)

Dealt to Hero : :

Hero raises to $3, UTG+1 calls $3, fold, BTN calls $3, SB calls $2.50, BB calls $2

FLOP ($15) : : :

SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, BTN checks

TURN ($15) : : : :

SB bets $5, BB calls $5, Hero raises to $18, UTG+1 folds, BTN folds, SB calls $13, BB folds

RIVER ($56) : : : : :

SB checks, Hero bets $55, SB folds

Hero shows : :

Hero wins $52.70


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My response:

With 3 callers pre and such an awesome flop (straight draw. flush draw, no high cards), I think you should be C betting here.

How much you bet is interesting - you basically want to represent either AK/AQ or a big hand such as a AA KK in my opinion to align with your preflop raise!

However in doing this though I think you want to represent a big hand that is played by a Scared of big pots player to either the flush draw hitting, or the straight hitting (not scared as in shove the flop so noone has the odds)

If someone has the a 4 (e.g. A4 or 45) most likely the money's going in anyway so not really worth worrying about.

With a multiway pot it builds up very quickly and half pot or 3/4 pot bets like 6 or 8$ will, in my opinion, scare away a lot of opponents (basically you will need the first guy to call to give the other guys the odds) and not achieve your objective - which is to undercharge the fish who think they can make a bigger hand than yours even though they can't, and if they hit their draw (e.g. a straight or flush draw) - then they can get overexcited about it and commit their stack, or miss and potentially bluff.

With a weaker holding you would obviously have to charge accordingly as if they hit their draws their hand will become stronger than yours. (e.g. if you had AA then you don't want the pot to continue multiway)

So I would bet the flop, but I would do a scared bet like a 3rd or just under half the pot (3-5$) and try to induce as many callers as possible. Then again the same bet on the turn - give them too good odds so they can't refuse their flush or straight draw and then over charge value bet them on the river when the pot is alrdy big!! They might even intepret your turn or flop bet as weak and re raise..premium

It's unlikely anyone will overtake your 77 so you don't need to protect your hand with a big bet here (someone with e.g. 88 or 99 might re raise your flop bet anyway and build the pot which is the main goal, or some fish might reraise 56 suited thinking -hes drawing to lots of premium hands)

It might even get to the river and you can make an overvalue bet (like pot) representing a missed flush draw (e.g. AK suited, remember you raised in UTG) and get a big value bet called on the river from a hand like 22,33,66,88 etc.


As always it depends on your table and your image at the table, if you bet every flop then bet again, if they are all fish and love calling any draw regardless of size, then just overvalue bet - if they are super aggresive and love raising draws then check to them.

If they are reasonably logically players TAG or you don't have much information on them, then I would persue the route above as I think this is extracts the maximum value.

Hand Discussion 2 "JJ 60 BB deep"

So ok this is not my hand though but a discussion of a friend of mine. He has no stats. Ill give his thoughts and my thoughts but would like to hear yours. I know I get a lot of these situations myself and I also know that in these situations its often a tough spot and thise situations definately needs fine tuning on my part.

so WWYD?

Seat 1: Sveden House (3,710)
Seat 2: DoyleBrownStain (10,171)
Seat 3: scumm3r (4,250)
Seat 4: Hero (9,682)
Seat 5: weebettle1 (3,140)
Seat 6: Dagon84 (5,550)
Seat 7: Predator2211 (6,380)
Seat 8: malin_j (3,195)
Seat 9: crakovik (5,805)
weebettle1 posts the small blind of 80
Dagon84 posts the big blind of 160
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Js Jh]
Predator2211 folds
malin_j folds
crakovik folds
Sveden House has 15 seconds left to act
Sveden House folds
DoyleBrownStain raises to 480
scumm3r folds
Hero calls 480
weebettle1 folds
Dagon84 folds
*** FLOP *** [2s 8s 5s]
DoyleBrownStain bets 875
Hero calls 875
*** TURN *** [2s 8s 5s] [8c]
DoyleBrownStain bets 1,499
Hero calls 1,499
*** RIVER *** [2s 8s 5s 8c] [9c]
DoyleBrownStain bets 3,256
Hero has 15 seconds left to act
Hero folds
Uncalled bet of 3,256 returned to DoyleBrownStain
DoyleBrownStain mucks
DoyleBrownStain wins the pot (5,948)

Heros thoughts/question: after I doubled him up with my JJ vs his KK ive seen no showdowns execpt 1 decent pot which he won with AA. Could I hve fold the turn

My thoughts: I would prefer raising flop to about 1899 or so. This way youll
A) get a fold which is good imo
B ) get a call which gives you the opportunity to use potcontrol on turn and see a free river cause most opponents will check their hands 2 ya after B/C a flop
C) get a raise, this way agains a tight player which he assumes he is will more than likely have U beat than have a AsXx FD.

at least U have a more clear ideay where U stand

Another player adds: If ur going to call turn the 9 river is an obv blank so ull have to call river aswell

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My Response:

Not a nice scenario

Heres my thoughts:

I agree that you should be re-raising the flop (or preflop, although in this scenario I like the flat pre because of the stack sizes and position) to define your hand / become the aggresor...flatting all the way is very passive and gives you no info on your opponent and also allows for him to hit free cards if he did have e.g. AK or AQ (esp of spades suit)

If he shoves after your re-raise on the flop or preflop then you need to seriously consider your options based on what information you have on him and the pot odds/etc (i.e. is he capable of making this shove with a bluff or semi bluff, e.g. AK with 1 spade and how likely is it that he has an overpair bigger than JJ?)

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Regarding your river dilema:
If we review the hand from his perspective (seeing as we don't know what he had let's assume he had KK, although his holding doesn't necessarily matter as much as the thought process behind it):

He bets pre and you call...not much information on your hand yet expect that it is unlikely you have AA or KK or AK as you didn't re raise him pre.

The flop comes and it has a flush (spades) and straight (could be holding 67 or 34 with or without 1 spade) draw, he does a standard C bet of around 3/4 pot - this doesn't really give away much info about his hand and charges appropriately the fishy flop - he can assume at this point his KK is most likely the best hand as it's 1v1.

You call his bet, but you don't re raise him. This probably means to him that you have most likely a draw (flush or straight) or a small part of the flop...e.g. a single pair (87 or 77 or 54, etc.). There's also a slight chance you have a big part of the flop (e.g. set or made flush) and am slow playing it, the chances of this are obviously lower as its so rare you flop a set and it is only 1 opponent And you would be more inclined to re raise on such a dangerous flop.

The turn comes and doesn't complete any draws but pairs the 8.
Seeing as you didn't re raise the flop and the turn card does not complete any of the draws (which he most likely put you on after your call on the flop), he value bets again to protect his hand.
You call his turn bet again, but don't re raise him. At this point he must be concerned because you are willing to persue the pot despite it getting expensive - and should be considering that it is a lot less likely you are on a draw (more likely at least a semi draw e.g. an additional pair to the 88 and a flush draw) and tread carefully on the river - he only has 2 pair and there is 1 pair already on the board, you could feasibly be holding an 8 (e.g. 87), I doubt he has put you on 99 TT or JJ at this point as he would have expected you to raise by now! (nothing majorly wrong with flatting thus mixing up your game to trick your opponents - keep em guessing!)

The river comes and doesn't complete the flush draw but does complete a straight draw (5-67-89)

Its a very strange bet he makes on the river: If he has a hand like KK or AA its quite a thin value bet as if he believes you have a missed draw it's very unlikely you are going to call a 3rd big bet for a big portion of your stack with a weaker holding than his assumed AA or KK - it would make a lot more sense for him to check-call here with an overpair (or make a smaller "blocker" bet e.g. 1-1.5k) as it controls the pot size (which is now pretty big) and allows you the opportunity to make a mistake...i.e. pay him off with a weaker holding or bluff (people seem a lot more inclined to bluff missed draws as they feel its the only way they can win the pot)

Which makes me think he has here either a very strong hand, or a very weak hand and is hoping you missed your draw ("aswell").

So I believe his holdings could be:

22, 55, 88, 89 or 99 for a full house / quads - These hands he could certainly bet out the river and would align with the betting to date (88 least likely)

AK or AQ with one spade - with this hand he might feel that the only way to win the pot is to persue his bluff and 3rd barrel the river (less likely) and could align with the betting to date

AK or AQ with two spades - betting the river makes sense as he has just been value betting every street

Or a complete bluff with any 2 cards (e.g. 77 with one spade), you can never rule it out - happens in poker completely unexpectedly from time to time lol guess that is what makes it an interesting game.

TT QQ KK AA I think he would check-call or do a smaller bet on the river.

Being a donk I would probably call the river bet after I have persued the hand thus far, because the way I (I mean..."we") played the hand looks very much like we have been persuing a flush draw and will fold to a river bet with only our missed draw in hand (why value bet into someone who has a missed draw on the river?)....If reraising had occured on the flop or turn and he had called and then bet out the river, I would consider it very differently and most likely fold to the river bet.

Hope there is some sense in there!

Hand Discussion 1 "Should I have folded pre?"

I wrote quite a few detailed responses on the Pokerisk forum to hands people had posted and asked for input on.

Seeing as I wouldn't mind keeping a record of them for myself (hey its my work!) and they are pretty interesting hands I decided to copy a few onto the blog...needs an update anyway

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"Should I have folded pre?"
Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $5,000(BB) On Game
SB ($156,794)
Hero ($194,622)
UTG ($94,435)
CO ($95,867)
BTN ($176,366)

Dealt to Hero : :

fold, CO raises to $12,500, BTN calls $12,500, fold, Hero raises to $37,000, fold, BTN calls $24,500

FLOP ($91,500) : : :

Hero bets $45,250, BTN raises to $138,866 (AI), Hero folds

BTN wins $182,000


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My response:

I don't think you can ever fold preflop without some sort of amazing read on the players (like if their stats were 0/0/50 then you could fold).

I am less against flat shoving preflop, however it is a bit of an overshove - granted at this time you feel you have the best hand so it could be considered an over value bet....there is a slight chance the button did slowplay aa kk qq jj tt 99 in which case he stacks you and that could be considered an unnecessary exit to the tournament

My preference though is to, as you did, 3 bet preflop. I think your bet size was good - maybe a little on the short side, going a little bit bigger like 40-45k might be better as that makes it easier for you to call the original raiser if he does choose to shove (as he had about 95k total), and charges that little bit extra for your opponents to play you when your out of position.

If the button re-shoved after this 3 bet, you have a very tough decision and I think you would have to go with your instinct....I'd probably tell myself I should fold and either; timeout, or call at the last second then be bitter when he turns over TT

Back to hand:

After you 3bet, the original raiser folds and the button calls, which means he must have a reasonably good holding to stick around in a 3 bet pot, even when short handed and with position. Your getting quite late into the tournament, so you'd expect people to be less inclined to fish here with weak holdings (i.e. he has called twice preflop now and not raised, I'm assuming its late in the tournament going by the blinds).

The flop, QT5 with a flush draw, is very ugly for 88, and worse still connects with a big range of hands that he could have called your 3 bet with.

Further to this there is a lot of draws he may be willing to persue all in with, such as a flush or straight draw.

Seeing as he had 2 chances to raise preflop and just called both times, we can assume he doesn't have a monster hand such as a AA KK QQ AK AQ - as it is shorthanded you could probably add a few more hands to that list but for now and simplicity's sake lets just keep it as it.

So his possible holdings are (with or without flush draw):
AJ, AT
KQ, KJ, KT
QJ, QT,
JT, J9
T9
98 97
87
JJ TT 99 88(unlikely) 77 66 55

In my opinion.

After reviewing that list and the QT5 flop with a flush draw, it's obvious that he connects in someway with nearly all of the potential holdings.

By betting out 45k when he has 130k (and you 150k) behind, you leave plenty of margin for him to re-raise all in believing their is a high chance you will fold, which he would do with a big portion of the hands from the list I have put him on.

So I don't like this c-bet at all - I think there is not enough hands you are potentially ahead of that he will fold (it's certainly not a value bet, it is basically a bluff)

Therefore I feel here you should either:

1) Shove All In or check raise all in
Preferrably straight up shove all in as he may feel committed to the pot after betting.

This gives no information away on your hand and gives him a very tough decision.
Like I just stated above, this shove turns your hand into a complete bluff (granted the pot, is big so the rewards are high). It is very unlikely he will call with a weaker hand than 88 (even for example KJ suited is marginally ahead of 88 here), but is a very hard bluff to call as AQ AA KK would take the same line.

2) Check fold
Considered nitty, but you re-raised pre because you felt you had the best, and now that the flop has hit, it is most likely you don't have the best hand....the pot is very expensive due to the preflop action so cutting your losses here and check folding is a viable option

Being a nit, I would go for the check fold option - I think there are too many hands he would call on the flop and too many scenarios where you would be behind...not worth losing the whole game on. Just a unlucky flop if u ask me!

As always though, your image at the table and your opponents playing style should impact your decision (e.g. if they are super loose I would check fold the flop, if they are super tight I would shove)